Easter Questions

[thir]

For starters, this is a seriously meant topic, and I really would appreciate any or all answers seriously trying to explain these things to me. For those of you who do not like Chrisitanity, please hold you fire while I try to get some aswers, ok? ;-)

Though living in a country where Christianity is supposedly the state religion I have never understood Christianity very well, and as few people in DK are actually religious, I have never gotten any the wiser.

Now, at Easter, I wonder again.

Jesus died on the cross to appease God, because humans were sinful - is that true?

Q: how could a blood sacrifice solve that?
Q: how could God create a son and sacrifice him, and that appeased his anger??
Q: if people just keep on being sinful, what is achieved?

Q: if Jesus died for our sins, does this mean that we can go on sinning?

I see the person Jesus as a great teacher, who had a lot to give. But I do not understand this other part of it.

[Thorne]

For those of you who do not like Chrisitanity, please hold you fire while I try to get some aswers, ok? ;-)

Ooh, ooh, please, can I answer these? No, wait. You want SERIOUS answers. Okay, I'll hold off. For a while. Not too long, though, please?

I see the person Jesus as a great teacher, who had a lot to give.

This isn't directly related to Easter, so I'll comment about this ONE line:

There are many serious scholars, both religious and secular, who aren't convinced that Jesus, as defined in the gospels, actually existed. Oh, there was probably an itinerant rabbi roaming around preaching some things, and he may have been called Yeshua, and he may have been executed for some reason (or not), but for someone who supposedly went around performing miracles in front of thousands of people, he didn't seem to make any kind of impression on people. Outside of the gospels, which were written many years after he supposedly died, there are no known references to him by contemporaries. Even Pat Robertson can get better press than that, and he hasn't performed a single miracle!

[thir]

Ooh, ooh, please, can I answer these? No, wait. You want SERIOUS answers. Okay, I'll hold off. For a while. Not too long, though, please?

Can you hold it a couple of more days? ;-)

This isn't directly related to Easter, so I'll comment about this ONE line:

There are many serious scholars, both religious and secular, who aren't convinced that Jesus, as defined in the gospels, actually existed. Oh, there was probably an itinerant rabbi roaming around preaching some things, and he may have been called Yeshua, and he may have been executed for some reason (or not), but for someone who supposedly went around performing miracles in front of thousands of people, he didn't seem to make any kind of impression on people. Outside of the gospels, which were written many years after he supposedly died, there are no known references to him by contemporaries. Even Pat Robertson can get better press than that, and he hasn't performed a single miracle!

Well, I like to think there was, because I like the idea of a person taking so much interest in other people in a positive way, as opposed to so much worshipping of money, violence, power, greed and what not. I am not a Christian in any way, but I can get behind sound advice like:

You cannot serve two masters - god and mammon, treat others like you want to be treated, if you share there will always be enough, recieve without payment and give without payment, let those without sin throw the first stone! - find the beam in your own eye before you try to cast out the beam in others, and one of my favorites which I wish I could learn: you cannot add as much as an hour to your life by worrying :-)

[Thorne]

Can you hold it a couple of more days? ;-)

LOL! I think I may have fallen off the wagon already.

Well, I like to think there was, because I like the idea of a person taking so much interest in other people in a positive way, as opposed to so much worshipping of money, violence, power, greed and what not.

There have always been such people. There still are such people. It doesn't take an imaginary being to make people good.

I am not a Christian in any way, but I can get behind sound advice like: ...

Yes, these are all laudable statements, and none of them are exclusively Christian. They are all older than God, even. Just because the Christian churches claim to be the harbingers of morality doesn't make them so. You can be good without God.

[ksst]

These are good questions for your pastor. I'm sure a smart one could give you some answers there. The best I can do is ask my Master, who knows Christianity pretty much inside and out and doesn't believe a word of it.

Here are my best guesses, since he's not home. Back in the old days, sacrifice solved a lot of problems, at least the people thought so. They were always sacrificing animals to try to make their harvest better/other animals thrive/children live. It is an effort to feel they had some control in a dangerous and unpredictable world. So having God make a sacrifice of his own son to make up for all people's sins should make people feel guilty enough to stop their sinning. No, we're not supposed to go on sinning. We're supposed to feel bad that we made God do such a terrible thing and shape up.

[thir]

Here are my best guesses, since he's not home. Back in the old days, sacrifice solved a lot of problems, at least the people thought so. They were always sacrificing animals to try to make their harvest better/other animals thrive/children live. It is an effort to feel they had some control in a dangerous and unpredictable world. So having God make a sacrifice of his own son to make up for all people's sins should make people feel guilty enough to stop their sinning. No, we're not supposed to go on sinning. We're supposed to feel bad that we made God do such a terrible thing and shape up.

I think you are right that people in circumstances beyond their control (actually, we all are, people just do not realize it) would try to get on the right side of powers or bribe them, or thank them.

But it is the idea of a sacrifice that does not compute..I mean, if god or the gods are everything or have everything or are omipotent - what does it matter if you give a little of it back - to what they already have - are?
Sorry, I am just trying to think aloud - I have never quite understood it.

[sub_sequent]

Q: how could a blood sacrifice solve that?

God in the old testament demanded sacrafice as a way to atone for the sins of people. This goes back to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. When Adam sinned(not by eating the fruit, but by disobeying a direct order from the Creator) the only way this could be atoned, was by a blood sacrifice. The reason for blood? - Exodus tells us the life of a creature is in his blood. Thus the need for blood - one life in the place of another.

After many many years and many many sacrifices God saw that a more permanent sacrifice was needed. A perfect sacrifice, taking the place of all the other offers and sacrifices explained once and for all.

Q: how could God create a son and sacrifice him, and that appeased his anger??

God never created a Son. He is God. He is just as much God as God the Father is God. He has just another function, another job if you will. And remember the sacrifice needed to be perfect? Who is perfect? Without sin? Only God. And that is why only God ( the Son) could be the final sacrifice.

Q: if people just keep on being sinful, what is achieved?

If i bought you a gift, told you about the gift, but you never came to receive it from me...does it make the gift useless? No! It just says YOU dont have the benefit of the gift. God gave His life...(The gift). Atonement was made and proclaimed (told you about the gift) and the only way to have the 'benefit' (thus forgiveness from sins and a living relationship with God) is by accepting it as a undeserved gift.

Q: if Jesus died for our sins, does this mean that we can go on sinning?
In theory yes, we could. But.... If you really grasp the concept of the offer, the sacrifice and the effect on the soul...then sinning would be something that would not be done without thought and then, after realising the sin.. You would not be at peace before you have asked, begged frogiveness from God.

I see the person Jesus as a great teacher, who had a lot to give. But I do not understand this other part of it.[/QUOTE]

I believe Him to be much, much more. And this was just a very short explaination how i believe the sacrifice works. There are many other things that could (and should) be mentioned here. I am certainly no expert but i spent 2 years at a Bible college.
if these dont answer your questions, maybe i could point you in the direction of some good books.

[Thorne]

God in the old testament demanded sacrafice as a way to atone for the sins of people.

Wait! Didn't god MAKE the people? If he made them sinful, why do we need to atone for HIS mistakes? He should be atoning to us!

When Adam sinned ... the only way this could be atoned, was by a blood sacrifice. The reason for blood? - Exodus tells us the life of a creature is in his blood. Thus the need for blood - one life in the place of another.

Why? Why not a scolding, or a mea culpa, or even a good spanking. Why kill an innocent creature (or person!) for your own sins? If I kill my neighbor, can I atone for it by sacrificing his virgin daughter, too?

God never created a Son. He is God. He is just as much God as God the Father is God. He has just another function, another job if you will. And remember the sacrifice needed to be perfect? Who is perfect? Without sin? Only God. And that is why only God ( the Son) could be the final sacrifice.

So God sacrificed himself, to himself, to atone for the mistakes he made during creation? Makes perfects sense, I guess.

God gave His life...(The gift).

So God is dead? No, wait. He isn't dead, is he? Something about a resurrection? So he didn't give his life, he just had a couple of bad days, went into a coma for a day or so, then woke up? And this is supposed to make up for all of the sins of mankind? How?

Atonement was made and proclaimed (told you about the gift) and the only way to have the 'benefit' (thus forgiveness from sins and a living relationship with God) is by accepting it as a undeserved gift.

What of those who happened to be born, and died, in places which DIDN'T hear about this gift? Why didn't God announce this 'gift' to the Inca's, or the Aztecs, or the American Indians? What happened to them before they were so violently 'saved' by missionaries?

In theory yes, we could. But.... If you really grasp the concept of the offer, the sacrifice and the effect on the soul...then sinning would be something that would not be done without thought and then, after realising the sin.. You would not be at peace before you have asked, begged frogiveness from God.

So I can slaughter families, neighborhoods, entire villages even, and get off with a simple prayer of forgiveness? That doesn't seem right.

And what happens if I refuse this 'gift' of God's, but still lead a good, moral life. Am I still 'saved'? Or do I have to suck up to the priests and tithe to their churches in order to attain this 'gift'? The whole thing sounds suspiciously like an ancient version of the Nigerian letter scam!

[sub_sequent]

Wait! Didn't god MAKE the people? If he made them sinful, why do we need to atone for HIS mistakes? He should be atoning to us!

But You forget. God did not make man sinful. He made him perfect. Without sin. Adam and Eve always had a choice to obey God or not. Otherwise how fair would that be? Adam and Eve made a concious decision to disobey a clear and direct order from God. There is No mistake from God's side there. This rests on man.

Why? Why not a scolding, or a mea culpa, or even a good spanking. Why kill an innocent creature (or person!) for your own sins? If I kill my neighbor, can I atone for it by sacrificing his virgin daughter, too?

I explained why a confession is not good enough. Only a blood offer. And never of another person.( Cause no-one is sinless) Always an animal. And yes, an innocent animal. Because a guilty could never be an offer.


So God sacrificed himself, to himself, to atone for the mistakes he made during creation? Makes perfects sense, I guess.

It actually does. He in fact then gave Himself for something He is innocent of. A perfect sacrifice.

So God is dead? No, wait. He isn't dead, is he? Something about a resurrection? So he didn't give his life, he just had a couple of bad days, went into a coma for a day or so, then woke up? And this is supposed to make up for all of the sins of mankind? How?

The Romans did everything medically known in that time to prove that He was dead. (Sword through His heart.... Not blood coming from the wound but a clear liquid) They proved He was dead and not in a coma. After He rose, He appeared to more than 500 people. They all testified that He was alive. It was THE sacrife needed because He was sinless in all aspects.

What of those who happened to be born, and died, in places which DIDN'T hear about this gift?

This is a question many people ask...and the answer is not difficult. Romans 1 cleary says that they will be judged NOT on their knowledge and acceptance of Christ. (Because they have no knowledge of Him) But on their acknowledgement of a Higher power through nature. And their living their lives with a clear consuance (sp) according to the laws of their times. Again, Your question speaks of an 'angry god' unfair and unjust. This is not true. His plans made that concession -becuase He is just and fair.

Why didn't God announce this 'gift' to the Inca's, or the Aztecs, or the American Indians? What happened to them before they were so violently 'saved' by missionaries?

My answer above applies here too. And i agree... 'Saved' is NOT what those so-called missionaries did at all!

So I can slaughter families, neighborhoods, entire villages even, and get off with a simple prayer of forgiveness? That doesn't seem right.

You are right. It cannot be right. I think it's important to mention that i am not of the Catholic faith. And have my own history horror stories to tell of Protestants being murdered.

And what happens if I refuse this 'gift' of God's, but still lead a good, moral life. Am I still 'saved'? Or do I have to suck up to the priests and tithe to their churches in order to attain this 'gift'? The whole thing sounds suspiciously like an ancient version of the Nigerian letter scam!

No, personally i believe that a good and moral life (with knowledge of God and His offer-So, Romans 1 does not apply) will not save a person. Neither does tithing or confession without sincere repentance and 'turning away' from sin.
Only a personal acceptance of this Offer and the implications in my life will lead to true salvation.

[Thorne]

But You forget. God did not make man sinful. He made him perfect. Without sin. Adam and Eve always had a choice to obey God or not. Otherwise how fair would that be? Adam and Eve made a concious decision to disobey a clear and direct order from God. There is No mistake from God's side there. This rests on man.

But God created man with the capacity to do sin. Therefore man is imperfect. Therefore God is imperfect.

And just why did God put that tree in the Garden in the first place? To test his creation? Why would he need to do that? Being omniscient he would already know the results of that test.

And finally, the tree in question was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. So why doesn't God want man to have knowledge. He prefers stupid worshipers? For that matter, why would an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent being need worshipers in the first place?

No, personally i believe that a good and moral life (with knowledge of God and His offer-So, Romans 1 does not apply) will not save a person. Neither does tithing or confession without sincere repentance and 'turning away' from sin.
Only a personal acceptance of this Offer and the implications in my life will lead to true salvation.

And this is the crux of my problems with religion: Everyone has their own interpretation of what the Bible (or Quran, or Torah, or whatever holy book) says one needs to do for salvation, and such interpretations cause schisms within religions. How can anyone know who is right? And why would God write a book of instructions which was so contradictory and ambiguous that it can be used to justify the beliefs of a (hopefully) moral and decent person such as yourself while at the same time be used to justify the abominations of the Westboro Baptist Church? Why, it's almost as if the Bible were a concoction of ancient mythologies and fairy stories!

[sub_sequent]

[QUOTE=Thorne;966044]But God created man with the capacity to do sin. Therefore man is imperfect. Therefore God is imperfect.

So, following your reasoning: every man has the capacity to be a mass murderer and therefore IS a mass murderer. Just because Adam and Eve had the capacity to sin, it doesnt make them sinners. We know they DID make the choice to sin...THEN and only then they were sinners. So, when they were made in God's image they were sinless, as He is.

[denuseri]

And just why did God put that tree in the Garden in the first place? To test his creation? Why would he need to do that? Being omniscient he would already know the results of that test.

And finally, the tree in question was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. So why doesn't God want man to have knowledge. He prefers stupid worshipers? For that matter, why would an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent being need worshipers in the first place?


And this is the crux of my problems with religion: Everyone has their own interpretation of what the Bible (or Quran, or Torah, or whatever holy book) says one needs to do for salvation, and such interpretations cause schisms within religions. How can anyone know who is right? And why would God write a book of instructions which was so contradictory and ambiguous that it can be used to justify the beliefs of a (hopefully) moral and decent person such as yourself while at the same time be used to justify the abominations of the Westboro Baptist Church? Why, it's almost as if the Bible were a concoction of ancient mythologies and fairy stories!

First off God didn't write anything...men did. Hence the imperfections.

Secondly: In some interpretations the entire creation story is allegorical with the tree of life being the ultimate goal that can only be reached by first eating one's way through the tree of knowledge. Since God is perfect, "the serpent" acting out of jealousy or not...is still doing exactly what God intended it to do (so is mankind by the way), which is prompt mankind to seek knowledge so that one day eternal life could be obtained. The act of taking the apple being one of rebellion, yet also one of seeking to be like God. After all Eve was only tempted because she was told that if she ate of it, she could indeed become like God.

Third: The overall message...that we should all become more loving and peaceful with each other and work together seeking harmony (in essence be like God wants us to be) stands alone regardless of interpretation. It is basically all about overcoming our nature's despite our inherent sinfulness and becoming enlightened and transcending mortal existence. It's not even a Christan or Jewish, or Islamic only theme either...Buddhists, Hindus and a wide wide variety of faiths ( in fact almost all religions) address such aspirations of apotheosis in like manner...as if trying to explain the same universal concept. Which is a good concept...love one another as you would wish to be loved.

[thir]

And just why did God put that tree in the Garden in the first place? To test his creation? Why would he need to do that? Being omniscient he would already know the results of that test.

You put your finger on one of the questions; why tempt people? For that matter, why create such a tree?

And finally, the tree in question was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. So why doesn't God want man to have knowledge. He prefers stupid worshipers?

If I were a god, I'd either want people to have knowlegde and sense - a lot of sense! - or to have less knowledge! That part I understand, except why then put the tree in?

For that matter, why would an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent being need worshipers in the first place?

A thing I have wondered many times. Gods do not need worshippers as I understand the word. They already have or are everything.

The answer could be that gods are not something we can really understand, so we create an image from ourselves - what we understand - and give them human weaknesses.

And this is the crux of my problems with religion: Everyone has their own interpretation of what the Bible (or Quran, or Torah, or whatever holy book) says one needs to do for salvation, and such interpretations cause schisms within religions. How can anyone know who is right? And why would God write a book of instructions which was so contradictory and ambiguous that it can be used to justify the beliefs of a (hopefully) moral and decent person such as yourself while at the same time be used to justify the abominations of the Westboro Baptist Church? Why, it's almost as if the Bible were a concoction of ancient mythologies and fairy stories!

Religion does not equal holy or unholy books. Only dogmatic religions, which are not all religions.

As for the books, I cannot understand anything in them - I simply do not know what is meant!

[thir]

No, personally i believe that a good and moral life (with knowledge of God and His offer-So, Romans 1 does not apply) will not save a person. Neither does tithing or confession without sincere repentance and 'turning away' from sin.
Only a personal acceptance of this Offer and the implications in my life will lead to true salvation.

But - doesn't that mean that is doesn't matter how we behave?

[thir]

God in the old testament demanded sacrafice as a way to atone for the sins of people. This goes back to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. When Adam sinned(not by eating the fruit, but by disobeying a direct order from the Creator) the only way this could be atoned, was by a blood sacrifice. The reason for blood? - Exodus tells us the life of a creature is in his blood. Thus the need for blood - one life in the place of another.

I guess this is the hardest thing about sacrife for me to understand: how another's sacrifice can atone someone's sins? I would have thought you'd have to sacrifice something of yourself, to atone for your own sins?

Q: if Jesus died for our sins, does this mean that we can go on sinning?
In theory yes, we could. But.... If you really grasp the concept of the offer, the sacrifice and the effect on the soul...then sinning would be something that would not be done without thought and then, after realising the sin.. You would not be at peace before you have asked, begged frogiveness from God.

I saw a film about this, where the devil materialized in Getsemane garden before the arrest, and showed Jesus how little people would heed his words after his death, and asked him if he really wanted to go through with it. And after a long thought, he said: yes, so people will always know that they have a choice.

I think there is generally too little thinking before action in our lives, not in a Christian way neccesarily, but rather in the sense of how your actions effect other poeple - and the planet.

Thank you for taking the time to explain. Maybe you can take a shot at another question: you mention the old testament, and as I see it, it is so radically different from the new, that I cannot understand how you can have both in the same religion?

[sub_sequent]

After reading through all the threads again, i just wanted to add a disclaimer: i am not English. So, if some things arent grammatically correct, it may be the Afrikaans influence.

Also the following:
Jesus died on the cross to appease God, because humans were sinful - is that true?

Yes, humans are sinful. Not only because they DO sin... But because they are born with the potential to sin.

Think of it as you would a fruit tree. You could say it is an apple tree because its fruit are apples. But it is more than that. It is a apple tree therefore it gives apples.


Q: how could God create a son and sacrifice him, and that appeased his anger??

People have this idea that God is angry. I dont read that in the Bible. I see that God is just. He cannot allow sin to go unpunished.
I see Him as merciful.. God the Son came to BE the offer we would have had to bring over and over. He doesnt forget about us after we deny the gift of forgiveness from sin. But He continues to give us chances to accept it.
In fact, in the Bible i read :He is slow to anger.

Just my 2 cents.

[Thorne]

i am not English. So, if some things arent grammatically correct, it may be the Afrikaans influence.

Your English is fine. Don't worry about grammar, as long as people can understand, it's all good. It's a hell of a lot better than my Afrikaans!

Yes, humans are sinful. Not only because they DO sin... But because they are born with the potential to sin.

And who's fault is that? Isn't this how God made us? In His image? And why should we be punished for having the POTENTIAL to sin? Everyone has the POTENTIAL to be a mass murderer, too. Doesn't mean we should execute everyone before they reach puberty.

Think of it as you would a fruit tree. You could say it is an apple tree because its fruit are apples. But it is more than that. It is a apple tree therefore it gives apples.

I don't understand this at all. It's a tree, and apples grow on it, hopefully, in good weather, if properly pollinated. What's that got to do with God?

People have this idea that God is angry. I dont read that in the Bible.

Then you aren't reading the GOOD parts! Plenty of anger there to go around.

I see that God is just. He cannot allow sin to go unpunished.

And he will punish umpteen generations for that sin, too! There's justice for you.

[sub_sequent]

And who's fault is that? Isn't this how God made us? In His image? And why should we be punished for having the POTENTIAL to sin? Everyone has the POTENTIAL to be a mass murderer, too. Doesn't mean we should execute everyone before they reach puberty.

An earlier answer applies here. Yes, everyone has the potential to become a mass murderer. But also has the potential to live a god-pleasing, moral and exemplarary life. It is THIS, in my opinion, the reason why God gives us many opportunities to turn to Him. He sees the potential to be what His plan for a person is. There is always the choice and therefore the potential NOT to be that.

I don't understand this at all. It's a tree, and apples grow on it, hopefully, in good weather, if properly pollinated. What's that got to do with God?

It is simply an illutration. We are sinners not because we DO sin but because it is in our nature to sin. It is THAT nature that God changes when a person becomes saved.

Then you aren't reading the GOOD parts! Plenty of anger there to go around.

I havent read it yet, but i will, the moment im on my laptop and off this cellphone. (On holiday at the moment )

And he will punish umpteen generations for that sin, too! There's justice for you.[/QUOTE]
Yes, agreed, it IS justice....
He keeps punishing because people keep making the same choices. Choices He has given other alternatives for. But read the rest of the verse..... He blesses to the 1000th generation of those that love God.

[thir]

I don't understand this at all. It's a tree, and apples grow on it, hopefully, in good weather, if properly pollinated. What's that got to do with God?

Do you mean that god does the creation and sets things in mortion, and then it works or not works, according to - what? His laws?

It is simply an illutration. We are sinners not because we DO sin but because it is in our nature to sin. It is THAT nature that God changes when a person becomes saved.

But then why did he not create us so we do not sin from the start?? This is what I do not understand.
It seems to imply that the first try did not work?

He keeps punishing because people keep making the same choices. Choices He has given other alternatives for. But read the rest of the verse..... He blesses to the 1000th generation of those that love God.

But then why not undo the whole thing, and make good people instead? It would certainly be a blessing for humanity!

What good is Hell? I have never understood that either.

Again, thank you for trying to help.

[thir]

After reading through all the threads again, i just wanted to add a disclaimer: i am not English. So, if some things arent grammatically correct, it may be the Afrikaans influence.

No worries, you are perfectly clear. And BTW, neither am I :-)

Yes, humans are sinful. Not only because they DO sin... But because they are born with the potential to sin.

I am not sure I get this: do you meant that the potential is the same as the actual deed? If so, can you say why?

And with potential, do you mean free will?

People have this idea that God is angry. I dont read that in the Bible. I see that God is just. He cannot allow sin to go unpunished.
I see Him as merciful.. God the Son came to BE the offer we would have had to bring over and over. He doesnt forget about us after we deny the gift of forgiveness from sin. But He continues to give us chances to accept it.
In fact, in the Bible i read :He is slow to anger.

Just my 2 cents.

As I read the old testament that is an angry god, while the new testament is a loving, even forgiving god. It is this radical difference which I find confusing.

[rocco]

I done a little theological studies myself!!! yeah I know!!! But it was for more historical reasons than trying to become a vicar or priest etc.

There was an angel, "the covering cherub of Eden" his job was to assist in turning the earth into a paradise. He was beautifully designed and "probably Gods second created son.
Through jealousy and wanting to be worshipped himself, deceived Eve. Making the forbidden fruit appealing. She ate, then later Adam joined her. Then Adam blamed God, and eventually this fuelled a universal challenge of sovereignty!

The covering cherub slandered or devilled God, and opposed or Satan"sed him. Hence becoming Satan the Devil!

I was under the impression, Jesus died for mankind to [a] atone for what Adam and Eve had lost for us all by disobedience. And [b] so we could in fact approach God with a clean conscience. WE ARE sinners, but the need for human sacrifice. Helped atone for them. That is why after he died, or was executed the old mosaic law was abandoned.

I dont for one minute believe God ordered his son to become a sacrifice, rather it was his son who probably offered. Considering its written "all things were created through his son" so therefore if we were created in Gods image, then we were of sentimental value. Otherwise we would all been condemned to death!
Just like when the flood came and destroyed mankind. [that was Gods doing]
I suppose its like me offering to become a hostage, so the other person can be freed!!?? Especially if they were vulnerable. i.e. child, elderly, or someone who was disabled. [if you get my drift].

And Jesus came to the earth, so its written to vindicate his fathers name!

The problem Ive always had is this "Trinity theory"!!!!!! In most old "pagan" religions, a lot of "deities" had three entities. In the bible the actual word Trinity is never mentioned. So thats what confused me!

A question I often brought up. if God came to earth and died, who was running things? that is if life cant exist when Gods not around????
So i hope you dont mind me adding that one on thir?

[thir]

The problem Ive always had is this "Trinity theory"!!!!!! In most old "pagan" religions, a lot of "deities" had three entities. In the bible the actual word Trinity is never mentioned. So thats what confused me!

I always heard of it as 'the holy trinity', the father, the son and the holy ghost. That is why some Islam say that Christianity is polytheist.

Many pagan religions have sacrifice and resurrection in their beliefs, long before Chrisitanity. It is a well established idea.

In my own world, this refers to what dies so we can live, and then grows again or is born next year. Nature's cycle, in other words.

So i hope you dont mind me adding that one on thir?

Not at all. Let's get our thoughts sorted out :-)

[Thorne]

I always heard of it as 'the holy trinity', the father, the son and the holy ghost. That is why some Islam say that Christianity is polytheist.

Technically, these are considered three "aspects" of the one God. When the early Christians decided that Jesus had to be divine, they had to find a way to make him so without actually devolving into polytheism, so they developed this Trinity idea. Yeah, it sounds silly. You have to take it on faith!

Many pagan religions have sacrifice and resurrection in their beliefs, long before Chrisitanity. It is a well established idea.

Many other things which supposedly made Jesus unique were also relatively common among pagan religions at the time or before Christianity, including the virgin birth. This is one of the reasons why religious scholars are questioning the existence of Jesus as a real person.

In my own world, this refers to what dies so we can live, and then grows again or is born next year. Nature's cycle, in other words.

The resurrection stories of the pagans were very common before the time of Jesus, too. They all derive from the rebirth of spring after the death of winter.

[IAN 2411]

I don’t know why but every time anyone talks about the unseen guy in the sky, I start asking myself questions. I am not an atheist, but then I am not a true believer. I have days when I sit and ponder religious thoughts, contradictions like the one that has been placed on this thread. One of Gods commandments was thou shall not kill, yet it is good to sacrifice life to God.

It is at times like this that I think the bible is a very good story, but nothing more. It was written with a mind to give moral guidance to a naive and uneducated world by “Whom?” Does it justify being adhered to as it did two thousand years ago? In my opinion “No.” It’s outdated and run its moral course.

This is the space age and technology dictates how we think and feel. Every time that this invisible man that made earth and the universe we live in is spoken about, I cannot help thinking about a link that [Thorne] gave me. I think that in the few weeks that I first saw the link it has changed my way of thinking and placed a lot more questions in my head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HKf5...eature=related

Be well IAN 2411

[ksst]

Oh, and God created us with free will, thus Adam and Eve and the apple and the Fall from Grace and all that.

[Thorne]

Oh, and God created us with free will, thus Adam and Eve and the apple and the Fall from Grace and all that.

Just how much free will do we have? We can do exactly as God tells us, or we can burn for eternity! Some freedom!

And of course, God doesn't actually TELL us anything. He has priests to do that. So we must depend on sinful humans (by their own definition) to tell us how NOT to be sinful humans? Who makes this stuff up?

[Thorne]

I think that in the few weeks that I first saw the link it has changed my way of thinking and placed a lot more questions in my head.

Questions are good, Ian. Thinking about what you believe, and WHY you believe it, is important if you want to be honest with yourself.

One thing I've noticed repeatedly happening in the current fiasco that is the Republican primary race is the constant harping about "liberal" knowledge, and controlling what we allow our children to learn. It's almost as if these people don't want their children to think too much, because they might actually learn that the Emperor has no clothes!

[sub_sequent]

Questions are good, Ian. Thinking about what you believe, and WHY you believe it, is important if you want to be honest with yourself.

I want to absolutely agree here with Thorne. I also believe that people should ask questions. Difficult questions. Even questions that might offend some people...... IF your goal is to actually find the answers to these questions. Then i believe, if a person is actually willing to listen and learn, then they will eventually find the answers they are looking for.

One thing I've noticed repeatedly happening in the current fiasco that is the Republican primary race is the constant harping about "liberal" knowledge, and controlling what we allow our children to learn. It's almost as if these people don't want their children to think too much, because they might actually learn that the Emperor has no clothes!

Not being American i don't have the context of the examples you mention here but something i absolutely believe in is that the truth, the real truth, does not need to be defended or cencored . It sometimes needs to be explained or illustrated but never defended. Parts of it doesn't need to be hidden away. I never feel offended by questions people ask about my personal faith. I also never fight about it.
If it needs to be added to, taken away from it or 'held up' it can't be the Real Truth. By definition it needs to be able to stand questioning. i have questioned. And came to the conclusions i have stated. This is not to say i understand it all. I don't. But that is why i continue to ask questions.

[Thorne]

i have questioned. And came to the conclusions i have stated. This is not to say i understand it all. I don't. But that is why i continue to ask questions.

Which puts you several steps ahead of the average American theist. I can respect someone who has actually looked at her faith and questioned it. There are far too many people who can't, or won't, do that.

But have you asked yourself why YOUR religion is right but someone else's is not? Try this out to see if you have really questioned your faith as deeply as you think you have.

[thir]

I don’t know why but every time anyone talks about the unseen guy in the sky, I start asking myself questions. I am not an atheist, but then I am not a true believer. I have days when I sit and ponder religious thoughts, contradictions like the one that has been placed on this thread. One of Gods commandments was thou shall not kill, yet it is good to sacrifice life to God.

It is at times like this that I think the bible is a very good story, but nothing more. It was written with a mind to give moral guidance to a naive and uneducated world by “Whom?” Does it justify being adhered to as it did two thousand years ago? In my opinion “No.” It’s outdated and run its moral course.

Naive and uneducated? Somehow this implies that peole of our times are less naive and more educated. The latter perhaps, but I do not see good behaviour by people of our times. Does this then mean that we need religion to behave? Or is it simply because greed and violence is now our religion, in place of some sort of code of honour? In other words, we do nost seem to have a code of honour that fits the 21th century.

This is the space age and technology dictates how we think and feel. Every time that this invisible man that made earth and the universe we live in is spoken about, I cannot help thinking about a link that [Thorne] gave me. I think that in the few weeks that I first saw the link it has changed my way of thinking and placed a lot more questions in my head.

I think that there is a good point here. Technology is changing our ways of thinking, mostly in terms of not thinking, because we do not need to, to survive. In fact, few of us would be able to do what the smallest fielld mouse can: find food and shelter. This way a lot of meaning has fallen out of our mental Universe, and nothing new has come back in. Or so I speculate.