And I used to be such a nice guy...

[The I]

My problem (which is almost as parallel to Fight Club as the quote) is that I still am. Well, a ‘nice guy’ who just happens to get off on women being humiliated, being tied up and make to squirm and scream with agony and unrestrained lust, on controlling someone else in a relationship so unequal that it would make Victorianism seem like a progressive feminist movement (almost at least). But also a nice guy who believes in equality, human rights and the intrinsic worth of all human being on account of nothing more than being just that, human; a leftist, politically progressive, tolerant guy with feminist friends who just happen to like watching, and perhaps participating in the torment and degradation of women in his spare time… You see my predicament?

Well, I know that a lot of you are probably soon going to tell me that as long as whatever I choose to do is safe sane and consensual I’ll be all right. That being liberated as a woman includes being free to submit to someone else (at least unless one is an anti-sex feminist, but even if I wasn’t kinky I’d still disagree with those). And that as long as I respect women when I’m not ‘scening’ I’m alright.

And I agree with all that. But don’t you other guys still get worried sometimes? I mean: My problem is not so much actually doing these things, it’s my being turned on by them. It’s the fear that the reason I like this is that I’m really a misogynist who’s intimidated by women in power and therefore wants to see them on their knees… What worries me is what kind of ‘sick’ motivation makes me, the ‘nice guy’, turned on by harming and humiliating another human being?

I’m relatively new in all this. I’ve had these fantasies for perhaps 5 years (I’m 23) and apart from role-playing, stories, fantasies and such I haven’t taken the step to ‘real life’, yet. But as get closer to consider taking these things to real life I worry about this more and more. I can’t help feeling things would have been so much easier if I happened to be a submissive masochist instead of a dominant sadist.

Does any of you else share these worry?

I could imagine some of you female submissives could have similar misgivings (that the urge to submit is perhaps an urge to ‘go back’ to being a repressed woman)…

Anyway I hope some of you guys feel like sharing their thoughts. Just writing this and getting it of my chest feels good at least.

[love2serve]

So it is possible. A nice guy who has a dark edge, a side he only shows to those he can possess. I knew that somewhere there would be a man like u to prove my point.... my husband is a nice guy, 28 years (20 of them married to me) worth of nice - but no darkside, no edge - an occasional flash of strength to push me to the edge of believing i'd let it loose - found his streak of controlling spirit and then... back to gentle, horny, funny, wont hurt me .... nice guy. Im not complaining, truly - love him big time - he can still take me to places that are on the edge of heaven (sounds corny) but I need an edge, a dark place that he would only want to show me.... maybe one day.....until then this 'place' is here on this site - where i feed my addiction and then return to normality. So thank u nice guy for showing me a chink of light at the end of the tunnel.

xx love2serve

[Joel Cairo]

Well I think I am generally similar to yourself in terms of the personality and politics I display to the world at large, but I differ in that I don't see a problem with my Dom proclivities fitting into that. For starters I believe that everyone has a 'dark side' (well I do at least) and that repressing it can just lead to trouble (see my signature) and that D/s play is a safe outlet for that. So yes, I think that an intelligent psychological analysis of an interest in submissive women could well conclude that it stems from a deep seated fear of women or something like that. However, it's vastly healthier to explore these aspects in the safe harbours of a consensual BDSM experience than, to use an extreme example, commit rape. And by exploring such feelings, one can often conquer and become more at home with them: my experience of play is that it is very much about learning to accept yourself for who you are.

Everyone has feelings and 'urges' they feel they shouldn't have. Without exception. But there's no need to beat oneself up about it.

Additionally, in my RL experiences, I have found it in fact to be a genuinely loving, affectionate and respectful experience between two people who want to explore those dark and hidden and nasty aspects of their personality. There is something about the shared broaching of taboo that brings partners intimately together.

So in my view actualising some of your fantasies may well allay some of your concerns.

[cara123]

TheI,

Very well-stated, perhaps the best stated discussion on this issue I've seen here. I agree that the contradiction doesn't totally resolve itself with the argument that the sub-female is freely submitting. As a submissive female who outside the constraints (if you will) of the bedroom is completely autonomous and liberated, I too have misgivings about my fantasy space.

It definitely gets you thinking about what motivates us to either dominate or submit. I certainly haven't suffered any abuse in my past, if anything I've just been exposed to the same depictions of pleasure as most, depictions that tend to humiliate women in a general sense. But that doesn't necessarily explain the desire to be tied up, humiliated, to experience pain. Of course that eventually gets us into psyche-talk, a topic which I'm neither qualified or interested in addressing.

Ultimately I guess our task is to identify what gets us off and under what conditions, and to control those experiences. Those experiences are pure fantasy for me as well, mostly because I find it hard to broach the subject in “real life.” (“No it's ok, you can bite, no do it harder”). But that's a whole other issue.....

[Shwenn]

I don't think sexual kinks are quite as deeply psychological as you are thinking they are.

If you are worried you might secretly hate women, it's a easy enough thing to discover. Pay attention to how you feel around women in power. How do you feel around women in power in completely non-sexual scenarios? Do you get angry in such situations? I doubt it.

...that I’m really a misogynist who’s intimidated by women in power and therefore wants to see them on their knees...

This is what I think your real worry is about. You seem to be skirting the issue that you are attracted to powerful women. Do you think that is damning? I don't.

If you are attracted to powerful women then you respect women. My personality is such that I'm something of a force to be reckoned with. I am an intelligent, ballsy woman. Some men want me because of this. Some men see this trait and want to me on my knees sucking their dick.

None of those men lack respect for women. Men who don't respect women do not find me sexually attractive. Men who don't respect women see how powerful my personality is and call me a lesbian. They think a woman's only real power is in her sexuality.

Men who really do respect women see how powerful my personality is and they find that hot, they find that interesting, it makes them want to do things to me.

What those things are is irrelevant. That's their kink. It may be that they want me to dominate them, them to dominate me, both of us to dress up like furries, have sex in a public place where we may get caught, or just have a vanilla romp. That has nothing to do with anything. It's always the same kind of guy who wants to fuck me but there is no commonality their kinks.

You are attracted to powerful women and you also like bdsm. There's no connection. The former is revealing of your attitude towards women, the latter is just the way you want to fuck.

[The I]

First of all thanks everyone for your quick and helpful replies. It is indeed nice to know that I'm not the only one with these concerns.

Well I think I am generally similar to yourself in terms of the personality and politics I display to the world at large, but I differ in that I don't see a problem with my Dom proclivities fitting into that. For starters I believe that everyone has a 'dark side' (well I do at least) and that repressing it can just lead to trouble (see my signature) and that D/s play is a safe outlet for that. So yes, I think that an intelligent psychological analysis of an interest in submissive women could well conclude that it stems from a deep seated fear of women or something like that. However, it's vastly healthier to explore these aspects in the safe harbours of a consensual BDSM experience than, to use an extreme example, commit rape. And by exploring such feelings, one can often conquer and become more at home with them: my experience of play is that it is very much about learning to accept yourself for who you are.

Everyone has feelings and 'urges' they feel they shouldn't have. Without exception. But there's no need to beat oneself up about it.

I don't think I've looked at it that way - it may have crossed my mind but I think I've been over focusing on my psychological motivations instead of just accepting that I have these urges and that I have to deal with them as sensibly as possible.

I guess that my worry, apart from accepting that I have darker sides, has been partly that 'perhaps things get worse' by 'living them out', either in fantasy or by practicing BDSM. I have arguably grown a lot more kinky role-playing, fantasizing and browsing sites like this but I can't say I didn't have fantasies of male dominance and so on before that... I realize that perhaps things haven't 'gotten worse' by my becoming more kinky: actually I've rather found several possible ways of 'living out' those darker sides in a way that isn't hurting everyone.

So thanks for that piece of advice, both to you and everyone else who said similar things.

Additionally, in my RL experiences, I have found it in fact to be a genuinely loving, affectionate and respectful experience between two people who want to explore those dark and hidden and nasty aspects of their personality. There is something about the shared broaching of taboo that brings partners intimately together.

Actually I've experienced that as well - both by watching websites like 'The Story of O' and with a submissive that I've been playing with online for a while - and agree that this is perhaps one of the most beautiful parts of being kinky. Quite a contrast to the hateful misogynic relationship that I fear actually.

This is what I think your real worry is about. You seem to be skirting the issue that you are attracted to powerful women. Do you think that is damning? I don't.

I'm afraid I must not have been very clear. I'm not particularly attracted to 'strong women'... Re-reading what you quoted I can easily see why you'd get that impression though.

What I meant with it was not as direct though: I'm not particularly interested in dominating strong women (though I think I'd be worried about having a very 'weak' submissive). What I meant was that my fear is that because of some subconscious animosity towards women in power lead me to sexually wanting a partner I can control completely…

[WyldWyl]

I see myself in somewhat the same light- however, I have an advantage in that I know I'm not misogynistic because I have much the same feelings and fantasies about guys as girls. But I still know the feeling- it's important to let your inner monsters and demons have their time to play; that way they're distracted and satisfied and not sawing the floor out from underneath you. As long as you can put them back in their box when playtime is done, then I don't think it's anything to be concerned about.

[GS42]

http://www.submissivewomenspeak.net/writings.htm

The top letter might interest you.

[The I]

TheI, in Denmark you actually have an excellent organisation, SMiL, who are working hard behind the scenes to educate police, doctors, social workers and the like about the real face of BDSM and make it safer for people like you to come out. Social acceptance comes next.

I am aware of SMiL and have been poking around their site before. It's nice though to hear that they're doing a good job and you might just have given me push needed to join them, at least when I've worked out a few practical matters and finally decided on 'coming out' on that level.

Either way it's good to know that they are doing something good.

" My ideal sub is a strong self-willed woman whose submission is valuable because it comes from love and trust. You can't give yourself if you don't own yourself." by leo9.

Because it was well worth repeating.

I agree with Kuskovian on this one and therefore I'll just let it be repeated again. Thanks once again Leo for a very well-worded argument.

It sounds like what I have seen and heard many times. The liberalization of society has taught us to be converse to the many inclinations of man, to do what comes unnaturally as opposed to the natural it began in the west with the advent of Chistianity in some peoples opinion.

The "Transvaluation of Values" mentioned by Nietzsche and the "Bio-Truths of Dr. Lange (John Norman); as well as many other philosophers, consistantly point out how modern political and social values have been twisted to emasculate mankind, which does a great dis-service to both man and woman.

It is my opinion that your second guessing yourself comes from the many years of phycological conditioning that this society has fostered upon you against your will.

It should pass with time and experience.

I must, however, politely disagree with you on all the other things you say.

I do not think it's a good idea to rationalize our desire with references to Nietzsche or the like. I believe Nietszche's thoughts are interesting, quite right on a few points, and definitely intellectually challenging but there are a lot of parts I do not agree with as well.

I'm not qualified to go into a discussion of Nietzsche, or John Normann for that matter, though. I still find it's a dangerous part to use any kind of overarching 'philosophy' to justify what we desire. In that I very much agree with what’s said in the link in the following quote:

http://www.submissivewomenspeak.net/writings.htm

The top letter might interest you.

And taken from that:
"The damn thing is sexual, Master X, and you can jump up and down and insist otherwise all day long, and it will not alter the truth of it. You do what you do, and want to do what you want to do, because it is thrilling for you, because you get a high off of doing it, because there is a rush from it that makes you willing to walk on hot coals in order to be able to do that. The submissives, the real ones, do what they do because there is a rush in it, because it does things to them emotionally and physically, because it is the highest form of sexual expression there can be, the highest level of personal fulfillment there can be. *Everything* is sexual to a true dominant and a true submissive because every aspect of their lives reflects the power structure, and that power structure is the focal point of erotic fixation.”

The problem, as I see it, with overarching philosophies is that they might solve something if you subscribe to Nietzsche’s idea of an ‘übermench’ or John Normanns that some are meant to serve. But to everyone else, who has not won that conviction I think it makes things much harder: When I worry about whether I’m really not a good person when I get off on what I get off on honestly the last thing I need is someone telling me that it’s all good and well because some are meant to rule others to be ruled over and I happen to be in the first category. The last thing I want to do is associate my kink with Nietzsche since this would mean that I should either start believing in his philosophy or give up my kink… I’d probably end up doing the last.

Furthermore I don’t think this is a good road to follow if we are to become less politically incorrect. Associating ourselves with thinkers who state that some are meant to lead, others to be lead make it way to easy for our critics. I think I’d much prefer to make the simple statement of the fact that power is sexy, at least to a lot of us, that we like things that are sexy and satisfying and therefore exchange power to get off, simple as that.

It’s exactly at the point where we begin mixing politics and philosophy into it I start worrying because at least persons like myself then gets to worry: ‘Oh god, I like this… but that means I have to subscribe to X and Y and Z ideas and since I don’t I can’t allow myself to like this’. No matter what political thought, philosophy or religion we ‘hinge’ our kink on we’re bound to alienate anyone who would not subscribe to that. I prefer my kink apolitical, arreligious and aphilosophical… I’ll just take it kinky instead. Thanks!

I don’t hope I’ve read your post as saying more than it did and am chasing ghosts or whatever. If I do I apologize.

[Shwenn]

Okay, I have another response, then. You don't want to completely control a woman. BDSM doesn't offer that. Submissive women in bdsm are not weak, they are not the sort of people you can completely control. Look around here and watch the submissives. Even the ones who live the complete lifestyle in which their Doms control every aspect, those women retain very strong identities and senses of self.

The sort of desire you speak of manifests in men who seek out thoroughly damaged, codependant women who will lose their sense of self in you. That is the woman you would be looking for if this were true of you. Those are the people you could actually control completely. In fact, you would specifically not want a woman who liked being tormented and humiliated. There would be no point in doing those things to her unless she didn't want them done. Her enjoyment of it would annoy you. It would piss you off. You would want a woman who truly feared you doing all those things to her but fears those things just little less than she fears the possiblity of you leaving her.

And the people who seek those relationships of true and complete control have no inkling of what is really going on. When you have a real sickness like that, you don't even acknowledge the possiblity that you have a real sickness.

You don't sit around thinking, I wonder if I actually resent women....

It doesn't work that way.

It's like, when a guy wonders if he's gay in some deep, secret place he can't deal with, doesn't that totally convince you he's straight? It's the sort of thing you either know and you're cool with it or you've buried it so deep you can't even consider it.

[Shwenn]

I don't mean to imply that homosexuality is a sickness. I do think that gay men who supress their homosexuality believe it is a sickness. That is where the parallel lies.

[The I]

Okay, I have another response, then. You don't want to completely control a woman. BDSM doesn't offer that. Submissive women in bdsm are not weak, they are not the sort of people you can completely control. Look around here and watch the submissives. Even the ones who live the complete lifestyle in which their Doms control every aspect, those women retain very strong identities and senses of self.

The sort of desire you speak of manifests in men who seek out thoroughly damaged, codependant women who will lose their sense of self in you. That is the woman you would be looking for if this were true of you. Those are the people you could actually control completely. In fact, you would specifically not want a woman who liked being tormented and humiliated. There would be no point in doing those things to her unless she didn't want them done. Her enjoyment of it would annoy you. It would piss you off. You would want a woman who truly feared you doing all those things to her but fears those things just little less than she fears the possiblity of you leaving her.

This time I think you hit it right on the nail! (isn't that how you say it in English?)

At least it's very reassuring to me to realize that that is definitely NOT the relationship I'd be looking for. The times I've dominated people online I'm pretty much the opposite: I worry very much that my partner is enjoying what I'm making her do, actually to the point where it can be a problem if I don't remind myself that she should actually feel dominated and that probably means having a feeling she's done something just to please me!

It's like, when a guy wonders if he's gay in some deep, secret place he can't deal with, doesn't that totally convince you he's straight? It's the sort of thing you either know and you're cool with it or you've buried it so deep you can't even consider it.

Great comparison.

Thank you very much for your that post, it's been real helpful!

[Shwenn]

My pleasure.

I think I can speak for almost all submissives when I say how grateful we are that you guys are out there. That you have the courage and determination to seek out these desires of yours.

We understand how it must be more difficult, it must be more frightening to face these desires.

We really appreciate that you do it.

Now you get out there and send some lucky lady into sub space!

[pervertedpages]

First of all, I just wanted to say that this is a great thread to have started, and I'm sorry in advance that I'm probably not going to add anything of quantifiable use to this discussion. But, it's a discussion, which I think is where the beauty lies -- it's important and therapeutic to think about how we feel, and particularly in minority/otherwise disenfranchised communities these kinds of introspections are frowned upon or do not get very much airtime because they're seen as self-deprecating. Certainly in a forum like this we're here to build a community and not to feel bad about our kinks, but it is important to feel and think beyond "I'm just like this; I gotta deal." Ultimately we do, in fact, just gotta deal, but if your desires don't rest easy with you now the situation will not get better without at least a little thought. I say this not as someone who has extensive real-life experience, but someone who has thought and thought and thought herself into the ground about this shit.

I feel the same way about my personal politics or leanings versus the life that I want to lead in private -- my personal ad would probably read something like: "lesbian-feminist queer militant activist seeks domineering misogynist to put her in her place," and for some reason, it was hard to reconcile these things for a while And, just imagine my chagrin when I realized that my shame about this was also adding to my arousal. What kind of meta-humiliation nonsense? We can't blame everything (or really most things) on porn, but I could see how it's probably upped the humiliation ante: the internet is riddled with pornstars who smile and moan in pleasure as they get bukkake'd. Humiliation is sexy because shame is so, so rare.

The thing that took me a long time to realize was that the shame or worry or disconnect about these desires doesn't even come from wanting to beat or be beaten. It's almost romantic to think of yourself as a masochist/sadist, as someone who is in "the lifestyle" for the "darker side of pleasure" or whatever it is we're selling to ourselves these days. Testing and challenging the limits of your own body and mind, challenging the very relationship between pleasure and pain; it's all very postmodern (lol): sensations on a spectrum instead of a black and white construct between pleasure and pain. When I think about this, it's possible to see the vanilla fascination with BDSM, and possible to see how one could say wow! What a highly evolved human lifeform, to be into such mind-expanding and revolutionary activities!

But, alas, this is not our problem. Our problem, or at least what I can see, is the fundamental disconnect between our desires and what people tell us it means to be a good person. 'How can I be turned on by inequality? In a utopian society we'd all be equal -- so do my fantasies make the world worse?' And the idea that we can say "it's just the way we want to have sex" is comforting, detaching it from the rest of our otherwise good-people lives -- but I don't know about the rest of you, but I was submissive before I knew what sex was. I only played with Barbies when my friend would be the queen and my Barbie could kneel in her dungeon; I played "slave" with my best friend when I was seven, having him "punish" me when I didn't follow orders. This seemed like a perfectly natural way to play. And it is. Because power is interesting and alluring before it is threatening or sexy. And christ, is it sexy.

But, now that I've talked myself into a hole with no end in sight, I will say this: don't feel bad. Don't stop thinking about it, either, both because thinking is sexy and because thinking about your sexuality keeps it evolving (and in check). I tend to feel, even though I was being cheeky with the whole highly-evolved-human-beings thing, that everyone finds power exchange sexy, and we here are just the ones who are enlightened enough to be attuned to this. Because sex, any and all sex, is completely about shifting powers -- who has it, who wants it, who gives it up, who is willing to share. The difference that I can see is the level to which we acknowledge this or play with this. That's something that most vanilla people will acknowledge when I talk to them about this, and it's one thing that's brought me at least a little peace of mind.

[Joel Cairo]

Humiliation is sexy because shame is so, so rare.

i LOVE that line. sounds like it should be a song lyric or on a t-shirt or something: seriously.

You have an ear for an elegant turn of phrase, pp.

And great thread, The I.

[HisKitty]

Mmmmk so to be honest, I haven't read all these posts because I'm tired >_>

But I really don't think it's easier to be a submissive in the eye of the public xD I took a class on Old Testament woman and it was very feminist based and I liked it a ton. However, it was like powerful women EVERYWHERE, and submissive women are a no-no. I think there's a lot of pressure from society on women to be the domineering-diva-bitch. In my opinion, saying your a submissive woman gets responses like "OMG You're setting the women's movement back!" Sooo many people don't understand that I can still be a strong woman and a feminist and be a submissive... Because we don't think -all- women should be submissive... we just choose that lifestyle for ourselves. I just think if I were to tell my friends that I was into dominating men they'd be like "woo hoo! You go girl, put men in their place" but if you tell them you like being dominated it's like -crickets- lol

[denuseri]

We so wouldnt have a conversation like this a two thousand years ago
WEG

I personally think as technology progressed past a certian point, the inborn natural tendencies of humanity have somehow been surpressed to warp our society to accomadate and addapt, the rise of so called womans rights and "gentlemenly" vaules animal rights, behavioral over analyisis, breakdown of the familey unit etc are all part of the emasculation of our societal values, so its quite natural for the repressed urges (to dominate and or submit) as would be natural in ages past to still be hardwired into us and at the same time be second guessed etc

basically our bodies and minds want one thing, when we have all been taught to do another or believe its wrong, so when we do what really comes natural and embrace our true selves, when we look deep inside ouselves and decide we are basically no longer affriad to be what and who every fiber of our being tells us is right to be, its sometimes scary because its not something that conforms to the way the conformist system says it should be


the greeks and romans had no trouble with guilt in these regards, thier world was as natural to them as it should be, in many ways much more enlightened than our one today

[deigja]

The I: Thanks a lot for your worries. They show, in my eyes, that you are a good dominant. You are thoughtful. Questioning yourself means that it is unlikely that you will hurt a submissive out of ignorance. You seem to me caring, not focussed only on your own fun but someone who wants to have a real partner, even if you´d like to bind her, spank her, humiliate her... whatever it is that you like to do... Someone thinking of the partner as much as of himself, or even a little more will not act out of any supressed fear, it shows indeed a lot of respect for your partner if you try to find the perfect way for both of you to live out your kinks.
Forgetting to show dominance sometimes...Is also a sign that you do not really want to hurt your partner but want her to have as much fun with you as you have with her and as long as you realize that feeling dominated makes part of the deal for her...
Its not important if you move a little slower in the beginning and test the limits slowly instead of crossing a boarder too early. you do not always have to reach the limits of your sub to make her happy.

Actually this is something I did not realize until recently as my new master and I were experimenting a lot. He went a lot slower than I wished it. By now he knows how far he can go and I realized that this moving slow was not only to his best but also to my best.
I trust him deeply. I know that he will never hurt me conciously and that he has enough selfcontrol that it is very unlikely that he will hurt me unconciously. He reaches my limits now, from time to time scratching along the border. ;-)
Fact is we are both young as well (I´m only two years your senior) , just starting off in the lifestyle and both are questioning what we do, what we like. And all the thinking makes us better as it gives us a better understanding of ourselves and each other.

Good luck to you, youngling.
Deigja

[Teufel]

Thanks for this thread. There are more of us "Nice Guys" who respect woman out there than you think. I have struggled with the same issues for a very long time and still do. However there were a few real life experiences that gave me some clarity, and provided me with invaluable insight into my own psyche. I am into rough Force Play, and the thought of actually putting someone through the emotional trauma and life long damage of a real, not play, act of rape would destroy me. There have been a few times when my partners didn't use the agreed upon safe words when they should have. One of those times ended that part of our relationship for a very long time, and ultimately lead to the end of the relationship. It was sad really, because the reason they didn't stop the play when they should have was because they feared I would be angry, wouldn't want to be with them, or would judge them as "weak". The exact thing they feared happening, happened because I couldn't trust them anymore. I have no desire to play with someone who runs the risk of the play becoming real. A sub puts total trust in the Dom's hands, but the Dom also puts trust into the sub. During play it can be very hard to tell the difference between play and reality, and crossing the line can have disastrous and long lasting consequences. With a new sub I am always checking on them, making sure they are ok with what is happening. In the moment this can be very inconvenient, break the fantasy, and ruin the mood (especially with an experienced sub), but is also absolutely necessary for me now due to these few past experiences. There are acts I will not perform unless I absolutely trust the sub I am performing them with, have lots of experience with them (sometimes years), have researched it, and finally discussed it over and over with them.
Real rapists don't care about their victims in the moment. They care for nothing but their own pleasure. They may (and I stress the "may" here) feel guilt and remorse later, but real rapists don't suddenly stop a the height of their own pleasure when a safe word is spoken, untie their victims and make sure they are alright.

We touched upon the subject of power exchange in a round about way during my "Marriage and Intimacy" class I took at my local state university at the beginning of the summer. Apparently, at least according to the research cited in the class, Peer and Near Peer marriages, in which both partners have an equal partnership of duties, responsibility and power, often have a common problem they called the "best friend" syndrome in which the partners become such good friends they lost sexual attraction for one another. Interestingly, the Peer and Near peer marriages that avoided this problem took active steps in the bed room to "spice" things up, and one of the "spices" cited was power exchange. Traditional marriages did not seem to have this as a common problem, and one theory was that an integral power exchange already exists in a Traditional marriage where the man has "veto" power as they put it. Society can be very hypocritical when they view us "deviants", but at least sociology is starting to come around.

As far as the powerful woman vs. the meek woman goes, I have been in relationships with both. I have found that for me, the meek woman who wanted to fulfill my every desire seemed like a great catch in my younger days. Who wouldn't want a woman that would do anything at any time just to please you? Me for one. It got boring real fast. They became carbon copies of me and integrated themselves into my life so fast I quickly couldn't determine where my life ended and theirs began. On the other hand a woman who knows what she wants, knows how to get it, and won't be pushed aside by my dominant personality is a complete turn on. For me, if I am the only personality in a relationship, then the responsibility for that relationship falls solely upon me. That's a big responsibility and provides no comfort in times of stress and hardship, but the hollow "whatever you think is best." Personally I much prefer the woman with her own opinion who I know will stand by me and lends her strength to mine during hardship.

[thir]

We touched upon the subject of power exchange in a round about way during my "Marriage and Intimacy" class I took at my local state university at the beginning of the summer. Apparently, at least according to the research cited in the class, Peer and Near Peer marriages, in which both partners have an equal partnership of duties, responsibility and power, often have a common problem they called the "best friend" syndrome in which the partners become such good friends they lost sexual attraction for one another. Interestingly, the Peer and Near peer marriages that avoided this problem took active steps in the bed room to "spice" things up, and one of the "spices" cited was power exchange. Traditional marriages did not seem to have this as a common problem, and one theory was that an integral power exchange already exists in a Traditional marriage where the man has "veto" power as they put it. Society can be very hypocritical when they view us "deviants", but at least sociology is starting to come around.

.

Hi.

I wonder where you get the impression that 'traditional' marriages do not have this problem? Can you explain? I can imagine that maybe traditional marriages do not seem to have the problem because maybe they do not get divorced or they do not get councelling, so any problems they may have do not 'show up' so to speak.

This sounds to me as another twist of the reasoning that domination is natural and male domination is extra natural - all part of what I see as a wish to somehow explain/excuse/get permission for the things we do in BDSM.

I do not believe that peer realationships are boring - I have not found it so, by which I mean the relationships I had before I became aware of my BDSM side. I also have not seen signs of this tendency in my sorroundings, and I suspect that part of this idea comes from cultural norms. I live in England now but have lived most of my life in Denmark where I think gender roles are rather equal, at least compared to what I see here in Yorkshire, and never saw any signs of this 'best friend' syndrome.

[Lion]

The I, your concerns right now were my exact concerns a little over a year ago. I come from a family with strong women. I support feminist movements and I agree that they are completely equal to men.

It took me a while to figure out, and this forum did help a lot. But what eventually did convince me entirely was finding someone who I knew to be smart, strong, and independent who was also increadibly submissive. After getting to know her on a more personal level, I realised that the two things, female submissiveness and feminism did not conflict. You'll be quite surprised, many if not most of the submissive females on this forum are quite headstrong and not the type you want to mess with in your ordinary life.

Also, a slight bit of contradiction, finding a woman who is submissive and knows she is, has a lot more control over her sexuality and to and extent, control over her life.

Anyhow, hope that helps, if you have more questions, you can PM me

[The I]

Mmmmk so to be honest, I haven't read all these posts because I'm tired >_>

But I really don't think it's easier to be a submissive in the eye of the public xD I took a class on Old Testament woman and it was very feminist based and I liked it a ton. However, it was like powerful women EVERYWHERE, and submissive women are a no-no. I think there's a lot of pressure from society on women to be the domineering-diva-bitch. In my opinion, saying your a submissive woman gets responses like "OMG You're setting the women's movement back!" Sooo many people don't understand that I can still be a strong woman and a feminist and be a submissive... Because we don't think -all- women should be submissive... we just choose that lifestyle for ourselves. I just think if I were to tell my friends that I was into dominating men they'd be like "woo hoo! You go girl, put men in their place" but if you tell them you like being dominated it's like -crickets- lol

I think you're very right, and I don't think it's any easier for you female subs. I can't help quoting for example one, anything but sex-positive feminist whom I came upon in my 'research' on the feminist stance on BDSM, who believed that "female masochism is collaboration"!

If only all our critics were as crude as that I don't think I'd be worrying about this though.

I feel the same way about my personal politics or leanings versus the life that I want to lead in private -- my personal ad would probably read something like: "lesbian-feminist queer militant activist seeks domineering misogynist to put her in her place," and for some reason, it was hard to reconcile these things for a while And, just imagine my chagrin when I realized that my shame about this was also adding to my arousal. What kind of meta-humiliation nonsense? We can't blame everything (or really most things) on porn, but I could see how it's probably upped the humiliation ante: the internet is riddled with pornstars who smile and moan in pleasure as they get bukkake'd. Humiliation is sexy because shame is so, so rare.

(...)


But, alas, this is not our problem. Our problem, or at least what I can see, is the fundamental disconnect between our desires and what people tell us it means to be a good person. 'How can I be turned on by inequality? In a utopian society we'd all be equal -- so do my fantasies make the world worse?' And the idea that we can say "it's just the way we want to have sex" is comforting, detaching it from the rest of our otherwise good-people lives -- but I don't know about the rest of you, but I was submissive before I knew what sex was. I only played with Barbies when my friend would be the queen and my Barbie could kneel in her dungeon; I played "slave" with my best friend when I was seven, having him "punish" me when I didn't follow orders. This seemed like a perfectly natural way to play. And it is. Because power is interesting and alluring before it is threatening or sexy. And christ, is it sexy.

Thanks for your post. After that bit of feminist crudeness I quoted it's definitely nice to re-read someone sensible like you. And it's nice to hear you "lesbian-feminist queer militant activist" subs are out there

And I think you're right: I think it is just about accepting that power is sexy, no matter whether you're under the boot or the one wearing it. And that it's ok to feel that way.

I've been reading part of the thread about whether one tells one's family about ones kink or not and it worries me a bit to see how most people are very much 'in the closet'. Of course I can understand that it's a hell of a lot easier not to 'come out'. And in a way it's true that our sex-lives aren't anyones business but our own. But I it takes us long away from becoming socially accepted.

In Denmark where I live a recent poll showed that 90 % of the population wouldn't mind a gay/lesbian neighbor (or prime minister!) and over 60 % of us know someone who's gay (I live in a liberal country, praise god!). The statistics I've seen show that between 5 and 25 % of the population has kinky fantasies of some kind, which means that we're pretty much as many as the gays and lesbians but how many people know someone who admits to being kinky?

As far as I see it as long as we don't come out of the closet we're not going to get accepted and people like myself and others are going to worry about whether they're really sick twisted bastards deep inside when we have kinky fantasies.

But as said: I perfectly understand why people prefer not to take the flack of coming out when being kinky is something as relatively easy to hide as it is...

We touched upon the subject of power exchange in a round about way during my "Marriage and Intimacy" class I took at my local state university at the beginning of the summer. Apparently, at least according to the research cited in the class, Peer and Near Peer marriages, in which both partners have an equal partnership of duties, responsibility and power, often have a common problem they called the "best friend" syndrome in which the partners become such good friends they lost sexual attraction for one another. Interestingly, the Peer and Near peer marriages that avoided this problem took active steps in the bed room to "spice" things up, and one of the "spices" cited was power exchange. Traditional marriages did not seem to have this as a common problem, and one theory was that an integral power exchange already exists in a Traditional marriage where the man has "veto" power as they put it. Society can be very hypocritical when they view us "deviants", but at least sociology is starting to come around.

That's very interesting. Could you give me the name of that study?

I must admit I've been a bit skeptical to that argument that now that we're all so equal we have to introduce some inequality into it. But the connection to 'best friend syndrome' seems quite persuasive...

Perhaps we do need a dose of inequality from time to time... and if that is the case one could argue that it's much better that we keep that inequality in the bedroom instead of trying to turn back time.

Anyway it's getting late and I'd better sleep instead of babbling on.

Thank you everyone for a wonderful discussion.

[leo9]

TheI, in Denmark you actually have an excellent organisation, SMiL, who are working hard behind the scenes to educate police, doctors, social workers and the like about the real face of BDSM and make it safer for people like you to come out. Social acceptance comes next.

[leo9]

On the original question: I went through a crisis of conscience like yours twice in my life. The first time was in my teens. I've known as far back as I can remember that I got that special excitement from scenes of bondage, slavery or torture in books or movies, but when I was young I didn't much mind if I saw myself as the top or bottom. In my teens I got a lot more focussed on fantasies of dominating and abusing girls, and I did sometimes worry that I was going to grow up to be a sex murderer: but I could usually get over it by reminding myself that I could also get off on being the victim.

Fast forward through a couple of decades of happy B&D with several girlfriends and a wife, to a time where that marriage had broken down to the point where my sex life was once again 99% fantasy; and as tends to happen in such situations, my fantasies were getting increasingly brutal and dehumanised. At this time I was also becoming a serious follower of the Goddess: and one night the two influences collided, and I felt that the Lady threw a cold look over all my ideas of abusing women, and said "You stop that NOW."

So I did. You don't argue with your Deity when She puts her foot down. For a year or so I got by on sub fantasies, until I had a visit from a Wiccan fuckbuddy who I'd always assumed was vanilla, and out of the blue she asked me to tie her up and spank her. At which point I decided she was a messenger of forgiveness, and I went back to tying and beating women with a will - first in imagination, and shortly afterwards married a militant feminist masochistic slavegirl.

Like a lot of people who've answered you, my basic reassurance about myself comes from the fact that I'm not a bit interested in the sort of weak-willed woman that a real abuser would home in on, someone who could be bullied and manipulated into letting me hurt her. My ideal sub is a strong self-willed woman whose submission is valuable because it comes from love and trust. You can't give yourself if you don't own yourself.

[Teufel]

"That's very interesting. Could you give me the name of that study?"

(haven't figured out the quotes function yet)

The article was titled, "Peer Marriage: What does it take to create a truly egalitarian relationship?" by Pepper Schwartz Ph.D. and was an excerpt from her book, "Peer Marriage: How Love Between Equals Really Works" (Free Press, 1994). She is a professor of sociology at the University of Washington, Seattle Washington, 98195. The excerpt was found in the "Family Therapy Networker Sep/Oct 94". In particular I think you will find page. 87-88 of the article to be the part your interested in, but its a good read overall. I haven't read the entire book, but its on the long list of my eventual reads.

[Arria]

The I: These concerns are normal for a beginner Dom, and I find it very brave and quite cute that you actually post the question here.

I heard from experienced Doms they had the same feelings in the beginning. It is also very confusing for men to hear all their lives "never hit a woman, show respect", etc. blah, and then being confronted with a greedy sub :-)))

Some of the other replies are very good reading.

For me, the fact that you ask yourself these questions shows you are a strong and confident person, and not a mysogynist.

If I might add something about my own hubby: While he loves to give pain and humiliation, and both are huge turn-ons for him, the VERY BASIC DIFFERENCE between him and an abusive asshole is: He aims to make the woman happy.
The abusive asshole would NOT want to make the woman happy, he would rather only give her treatments she hates, or deprive her of treatments she craves, or even love and kindness, not to mention respect.

As long as you feel comfortable with your needs, and have partners you can share them with, do not worry, you are perfectly ok and healthy :-)
These worries will go away with time.

I also agree with denu very much. I do not think people were created to exist in such a boring, tame, overpolite, overly politically correct environment as we have it now. Many natural urges are suppressed.

Kind regards
Arria

[Kuskovian]

" My ideal sub is a strong self-willed woman whose submission is valuable because it comes from love and trust. You can't give yourself if you don't own yourself." by leo9.

Because it was well worth repeating.

It sounds like what I have seen and heard many times. The liberalization of society has taught us to be converse to the many inclinations of man, to do what comes unnaturally as opposed to the natural it began in the west with the advent of Chistianity in some peoples opinion.

The "Transvaluation of Values" mentioned by Nietzsche and the "Bio-Truths of Dr. Lange (John Norman); as well as many other philosophers, consistantly point out how modern political and social values have been twisted to emasculate mankind, which does a great dis-service to both man and woman.

It is my opinion that your second guessing yourself comes from the many years of phycological conditioning that this society has fostered upon you against your will.

It should pass with time and experience.

[leo9]

It sounds like what I have seen and heard many times. The liberalization of society has taught us to be converse to the many inclinations of man, to do what comes unnaturally as opposed to the natural it began in the west with the advent of Chistianity in some peoples opinion.

Dark Age Christianity didn't preach equality and democracy: it taught that submitting to those above you was God's will, and ruling those below you harshly was good for their souls. In Northern Europe it imposed hierarchical values on a society that had been egalitarian and individualistic, and pulled women down from being more or less equal. Not exactly the coming of fluffy liberal ways.

[color]
The "Transvaluation of Values" mentioned by Nietzsche and the "Bio-Truths of Dr. Lange (John Norman); as well as many other philosophers, consistantly point out how modern political and social values have been twisted to emasculate mankind, which does a great dis-service to both man and woman.
[/COLOR]

That's their opinion. Others argue that the natural state of humans, like our close primate relatives, is co-operation, with dominance used only as a minor social tool. The widespread rule of warlords and tough males is an aberation from which our species has begun to recover. (Right now the recovery doesn't look so good, but we can hope.)

We can enjoy and benefit from playing with the leftover instincts for peck-order living, just as we play with the instincts for hunting and fighting, but it's neither necessary nor healthy to build society around them.

If D/s arises because some are "born to rule" and others have an inborn need to submit, where does that leave switches like me?

[thir]

"Does any of you else share these worry?

I could imagine some of you female submissives could have similar misgivings (that the urge to submit is perhaps an urge to ‘go back’ to being a repressed woman)…"

I know you've had a lot of good answers as you anticipated, but I thought I'd like to add this one: When I 'woke up' to my sub side it was literally, as in having dreamed about it. The dreams continued, and they were exciting like hell, also confusing as hell. I just could not grasp what all this had to do with ME! For all the usual political and mental reasons already mentioned elsewhere. it was like a complete schism between mind and - mind, I suppose. Soon after I had dom-dreams!
I speculated myself into a corner for over two years, without getting anywhere by that route.
Finally I just went and did it. And that solved the puzzle quite without any more speculation. I had tried abuse once, and that made me feel awful for months afterwards. I tried this, and it made me feel happy and liberated.
Things that make me feel good are not bad. And the person who makes me feel good is not bad. It is that simple.
It is another expression of love and or lust. Neither are bad.

I think it is good and neccesary to question yourself. But listen to your inner voice, your instinct, the most inner voice that tells you if you are doing right. And trust it.
Hilsner fra en anden dansker :-)

thir

[thir]

But, alas, this is not our problem. Our problem, or at least what I can see, is the fundamental disconnect between our desires and what people tell us it means to be a good person. 'How can I be turned on by inequality? In a utopian society we'd all be equal -- so do my fantasies make the world worse?'

Thanks for a lively and interesting post :-)
No, fantasies do not make the world worse. Fantasies do not matter, actions do. And our actions are our own, we do not hurt anyone by them. IMO one aspect of utopia is accepting diversity.

I played "slave" with my best friend when I was seven, having him "punish" me when I didn't follow orders. This seemed like a perfectly natural way to play. And it is. Because power is interesting and alluring before it is threatening or sexy. And christ, is it sexy.

Not to me, I must say. To me power is something that is too often abused, mainly talking about societies and countries but also on the personal level.
To me power has no allure nor any interest!
But it can be sexy in a purely personal and specific circumstance.

Because sex, any and all sex, is completely about shifting powers -- who has it, who wants it, who gives it up, who is willing to share. The difference that I can see is the level to which we acknowledge this or play with this. That's something that most vanilla people will acknowledge when I talk to them about this, and it's one thing that's brought me at least a little peace of mind.

Do not get me wrong when I say this, but I am really baffled by arguments that go along the line of "this is how it is for me, so this is how it is everybody."
As I see it people are like animals, we have our basic sexual instincts which nature imposes on us to make us make more people. Beyond that, there are many specialities if you like, some of which are based on power such as BDSM, but many are not or need not be, such as cross-dressing, gays, fetichism, poly and a heap more.

As for giving you peace of mind, as I said, I think that using this way of doing it by way of universal explanations or whatever can be a bit problematic as is argued elsewhere.

I ask myself why we need to look so hard for this peace of mind? (which most of us do, or did from the start)
And I think it may be as simple as that society does not want us to be happy. It wants us to be happy their way, and if we are different, we should be unhappy!
Why should we oblige them? If we can accept that the way we are is right, and be happy that way, we have won!